NYC Carriage Drivers to File Formal Complaint with Attorney General Against ASPCA

NEW YORK, (HCANYC) – The Horse and Carriage Association of New York City will be filing formal complaints today with the NY State Attorney General’s Office, the Mayor’s Office, the NYC Department of Investigation, and with the Inspector General of the NYC Department of Health.  These complaints are being levied against the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (known as the A.S.P.C.A.) and its affiliated lobbying group, New Yorkers for Clean, Livable and Safe Streets (known as NY-CLASS).

The nature of the complaints and their focus are as follows:

  • We are asking the Attorney General to investigate what may be the improper exchange of money and resources between the ASPCA and NY-CLASS.  Ed Sayres is both the president and CEO of the ASPCA, and the co-president of NY-CLASS.  In addition to subsequent use of facilities, vehicles, resources, and personnel, the ASPCA gave NY-CLASS $250,000 at the time of NY-CLASS’s founding in 2008.

 

  • Both the ASPCA and NYCLASS have made false, misleading, and/or deceptive statements about the carriage industry

    in conjunction with fundraising and solicitation of donations, and we believe that this activity constitutes a potential to defraud the public.

 

 

  • We are seeking an investigation into NY-CLASS’s (and, by extension, the ASPCA’s) questionable participation in deceptive anti-carriage-industry advertising campaigns by “animal-rights” organizations such as People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) and the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS), and the private company, Manhattan Mini Storage, owned by Edison Properties LLC of Newark, NJ.    NY-CLASS’s co-president is Steve Nislick, CEO of Edison Properties.

 

  • We are also asking for a full and thorough investigation into the alleged in-house “pressuring” of the ASPCA’s vet to issue misleading and unscientific statements about the death of Charlie on October 23rd. This alleged “pressure” has already been the subject of a complaint to the AG’s office by equine veterinarian Dr. Pamela Corey against her employer, the ASPCA.

 

  • Finally, we are seeking recourse for the glaring conflict of interest which has been laid bare by all the aforementioned activities of the ASPCA and NY-CLASS. This conflict of interest concerns the ASPCA’s Humane Law Enforcement Division’s primary duty as a law enforcement agency, as required by its NY State Charter and by NYC Administrative Code, to oversee and enforce laws pertaining to our industry, while the secondary activities of the ASPCA seek to eliminate our industry altogether.

 

Enough is enough. 

We request that the Attorney General examine what appears to be a grave betrayal of the public trust by the ASPCA.  We expect that the City Council, the Mayor’s Office and the Department of Health will take these complaints very seriously, and conduct their own investigations into this disturbing conflict of interest at the ASPCA and in NY-CLASS’s political activities, in order to determine whether or not the ASPCA can EVER be a fair and impartial law enforcement agency, acting on the City’s and the public’s behalf, with regard to the carriage industry.

About the Horse and Carriage Association of New York City

The Horse and Carriage Association of New York City, Inc. is a non-profit organization chartered in 2000 to promote and protect New York City’s horse-drawn carriage industry, its horses and its history. Its members include medallion owners, stable owners, drivers, industry personnel and other supporters, giving a collective voice to the iconic horses and carriages of Central Park.  The drivers, workers, and small businessmen of the Horse and Carriage Association are represented by Teamsters Local 553.

83 comments for “NYC Carriage Drivers to File Formal Complaint with Attorney General Against ASPCA

  1. Ellen-Cathryn Nash
    November 25, 2011 at 6:40 am

    Please note that the reply below mine from ‘Ellen’ is NOT FROM Ellen-Cathryn Nash. Request the admin remove that fallacious post and clarify it was not authored by me. Also get the IP address so I can file charges for someone using my name illegally.

    Ellen
    Ellen-Cathryn Nash

    • admin
      November 25, 2011 at 6:44 am

      We took a look and her post is simply tagged as Ellen, while yours appears under the full name of Ellen-Cathryn Nash. As such my judgement is that there was no attempt at an attempt to ururp your identity.

      The Editor

      • Ellen-Cathryn Nash
        November 25, 2011 at 8:50 am

        Thanks so much. People use my domains to create email addresses for nasty products and they do get sent as they have hacked into the accounts and are able to get the correct data to use my name. It is very annoying, but others have suffered far worse.

        Ellen

  2. Ellen
    November 24, 2011 at 10:53 pm

    An outstanding development!

    It’s clear that the burden of proof is on the activists. They must establish that there is wrongdoing or abuse in the carriage industry.

    In recent weeks, the ASPCA has lied about the condition of a horse who died (and suspended the investigating vet for telling the truth), the work of Animal Angels has been commandeered and twisted into lies… in fact, not ONE piece of evidence has emerged demonstrating that there is any mistreatment of animals taking place. Not one.

    The reality is that there is no story here. The carriage horse protests are for people who know nothing about horses and nothing about the industry. They are funded by people who want to force the world to go vegan, who want to outlaw animal ownership in any capacity. They are attended by city dwellers who desperately cling to a cause, something to do on the weekends that makes them feel good about themselves. Something high-profile, to get their pictures in the paper.

    And the reality is that this industry has been closely monitored for a very, very long time. It has been watched by the public, by the ASPCA, by veterinary officials, by the Department of Health. These many decades, there has been no evidence found suggesting that there is rampant abuse in the industry. Even with an organization as anti-carriage as the ASPCA, the most they can present is half-truths, and even those are insufficient to cause the industry to be shut down.

    There is no abuse. It hasn’t been found, in spite of best efforts, and it won’t be found. Because it doesn’t exist.

  3. Ellen-Cathryn Nash
    November 24, 2011 at 10:23 pm

    @abby house,

    Somehow I doubt that Eva will be returning in the near future. She wrongly perceives that she is being attacked personally. Ad Feminam arguments are fallacious and that is not what I did here. I simply asked the Carriage Horse Diva what her objection is to keeping the horses in Central Park.

    @D. Verret, sure, there is one good stable and that is what was televised. What was not televised were the Tenement buildings where the horses have to climb ramps to get to the second and third floors of these awful structures. The horses get injured or killed when they are on the street, not in the Park. PeTA has a horrible reputation here in the States, however they are a worldwide organization and they have done a tremendous amount of good in other countries. Ingrid Newkirk is a bit ‘odd’ (an understatement) however when they lobby for bills they send well educated College graduates that are well dressed and articulate. I am pretty sure not all of those are Vegans. They are very effective at getting bills passed at the state level. Their collection of undercover videos is extensive and some would make you positively ill.

    It does not take a genius to see the problem is with the horses leaving the park. Bloomberg could do this by himself and not need permission from the Central Park Conservancy. As long as the Conservancy does not have to foot the construction costs, they would probably love the idea as years ago there were stables for the wealthy who had horses so it is part of the Park’s history.

    I have worked in Manhattan for half of my life but I live across the Hudson River and was never a resident of New York City. The WAR group that constantly protests is barking up the wrong tree. Animals occupy the same ethical sphere as children; children have ‘human rights’ and society at large is responsible for reporting abuse if there is an awareness. Once a woman was beating her kid in a shopping cart at the grocery store, I went to the Manager and asked him to call the Police, which he did. There were plenty of witnesses and we all gave our statements; the woman was arrested and the child put into protective custody. Animals can never have rights as we define them, they are unable to reciprocate and as with children who are unable to reciprocate they are not awarded full rights until they reach the voting age.

    WAR can document the abuse but instead of banning the trade, they should be fighting to reform the trade. That is in the best interest of the horses. Also, Eva is incorrect; not all of the horses are Drafts (they are expensive to buy, even at the livestock auctions). There was a lovely gray horse named ‘Tiny’ because he WAS tiny. His driver took excellent care of him as he was Tiny’s owner. Tiny pulled a 2 passenger carriage and he did not work at night.

    This has been aggravating me for years! Hopefully, the horses will somehow end up in Central Park where as pointed out in a prior post the public can bring their kids to visit the horses. I had an Arabian horse who detested adults. He dumped everyone but he adored children. I am small in stature so to that horse he equated me with a kid. Horses can discern when there is not a threat so they are friendly. I am sure the Carriage horses would love treats that the kids would bring; it would work out so well and it should be done. BTW horses need to be turned out daily as they need to graze and have a roll in the dust or the mud. My rescue horse love their ‘mud baths’ and that is a natural behavior because they know the rolling gets rid of parasites like flys etc.

    Back to the Thanksgiving stuff now, dishes, dishes, dishes.

    Ellen

  4. Ellen-Cathryn Nash
    November 23, 2011 at 10:23 pm

    It has been my experience that when an an opponent to logical argumentation is unable to respond with a valid counter argument, the argument is OVER with the opposition having failed to support their position. What we have here is the good old ‘reductio ad absurdam’ which is one of the most common fallacies of the rules of logic. Eva has reduced her position to an absurdity. Not uncommon with humans that want to continue victimizing animals; she is probably somehow related to Sue Wallis.

    • abby house
      November 24, 2011 at 3:48 pm

      Well said Ellen-Cathryn

  5. Ellen-Cathryn Nash
    November 23, 2011 at 8:26 am

    Eva. you are the perfect example of the problem with the Carriage owners. You simply want to keep going on and on defending that which indefensible. Your comment regarding horses going to horse shows is utterly ludicrous and of course as a rescuer I am very concerned about the horses that go to the New Holland, Camelot and other livestock auctions. Where do you think the horses I rescue come from? Central Park is enormous and the Sheep’s Meadow could easily accommodate the 218+ Carriage horses. Don’t be daft, there is plenty of room and my question is why are you so resistant to keeping the horses in Central Park only? The Hack line is at the entrance to the park!

    • abby house
      November 23, 2011 at 3:54 pm

      Eva is living in denial. Where there is smoke there is fire. If carriage operators acted ethically and treated their equines well then it wouldn’t get any press. End of story.

      • Ellen
        November 24, 2011 at 10:54 pm

        The only press here is manufactured. See: the ASPCA’s exposed lies, the Animals Angels statement, etc.

        Where there is smoke, there is an animal rights activist setting the barn on fire.

  6. Jan S
    November 22, 2011 at 11:10 pm

    I think the idea related to the horses taking their vacations in one spot (whether in Central Park or some farm closer to NY) is a form of accountability. Because it is easy enough to truck one horse off who is not performing so well or has injuries or is not carrying its weight (literally), oops not to New Holland (the investigator is sitting there), let’s go to this farm off to the side and drop it off. Yeah, the farm where the horse didn’t even arrive with a name. All the carriage horses have names – at least to hear the drivers tell it. So to have one arrive unnamed is sort of like – well sort of like every other horse introduced into the pipeline – anonymous! Let the rumors fly. And if I recall correctly, rasping the wall is not recommended unless there is a slight crack – that rasping in the photograph was the entire front of the toe. For whatever reason. Get my point? Who is to say this horse will not be sold to slaughter while we are all digressing off the point “the horses are making you money, you better take care of them.” The public (including myself) are pretty sick of hearing or seeing situations involving so-called long term experts sliding their horses down the slipper slope all the while calling foul because a few “other directed” citizens (those working in other ways of life) jerk their covers off. I don’t care if you were born of a horse – if you want to use them for income you’d better be accountable. Those are lives – not books.

    And let me point this out – all this talk the past few days about this horse and I have not seen one mention by the owners of the truck or trailer or carriage company or of the horse speak up and straighten out the record. So you can huff and puff all you want – until the truth comes out … then we’ll hear only silence. I stand by my take of the situation – and I did not point fingers, made a few assumptions as did most of the posters here. Whether the horses need to work on the streets is VERY dependent on how their owners respect them and provide for them. It is very simple really.

    • SLH
      November 22, 2011 at 11:55 pm

      Jan S. The numbers are seared into the hoof wall. The amount of rasping needed to remove them would be signifigant and could have potential complications.

      Are you willing to assume that any draft type horse that shows up with some rasping done to a front hoof must be an X NYC horse?

      Lets be realistic what is stopping then a few radical groups from gathering up a few draft horses rasping their hooves and claiming “OMG NYC CARRIAGE HORSE”.

      Further more there has been articles and proof provided the horse was in danger at any time. http://horsebackmagazine.com/hb/archives/12733

    • November 23, 2011 at 5:15 am

      Hey Jan S — dozens of horses actually DID go to the kill buyer at New Holland yesterday, like they do every Monday. Do you concern yourself with each and everyone of them, and if not, why not? Because they have no hoof number?

      • D. Verret
        November 23, 2011 at 11:55 am

        People against HCHS and inhumane treatment of equines in the US and even internationally (CAN/MEX) can multitask; so yeah, I bet posters here do concern themselves, hoof #, tattoo, freeze brand or no id at all.

        You on the on the other hand, seem fanatical in your position that you’re always right and there is nothing wrong with NYC carriage equines and every ignorant bleeding heart “all the pretty ponies” folks are picking personally on you.

        Don’t presume to tell many posting here about the equines that went to slaughter thru New Holland that day. We have been involved, watching, pulling , rehoming, training and yes, even humanely euthing equines from those hellholes for many years now. You are an arrogant, ignorant bully that owns horses to earn a living (earning ain’t the problem, your attitude is and you got a BAD one). I pray that you treat your equines with more respect and sensitivity than you do humans.

        • skip
          November 23, 2011 at 2:20 pm

          To Dr. Verret-where in any of Eva Hughes’ posts does she show disrespect as to her involvement w/horses?She answers questions that are both intelligent and stupid;you,my dear,are the fanatical one by accusing her of being “arrogant and ignorant that owns horses to earn a living” FYI, there are many of us who use horses to make a living,are good horsemen, and are proud of it;when you put yourself in our shoes then you can pass judgment(anyone reading your posts for the past 6 months or so can see that you can’t fill those shoes);it’s one thing to be passionate,passion doesn’t necessarily make you right.

          • D. Verret
            November 23, 2011 at 3:08 pm

            (1) In all posts that don’t agree with her; (2)No she doesn’t…go find the bridge.

            And if many were “good horsemen”, we wouldn’t be talking about this, or slaughter, etc in the first freaking place. And yes, I know many people use equines to make a living…it doesn’t make you right, more important or negate equine responsibility of ownership.

            Your good, certainly isn’t mine. Difference? History, culture and lazy laws/law enforcement protect creep equine owners.

            I’m not a doctor, but I certainly know more about equines and their welfare than you do…which isn’t hard to achieve.

            I walk in my shoes and know the difference; Ms Hughes would do well to walk in her opponents shoes to find a solution. Watched the NY1 show and the PETA person and the antique car lady were over the edge…the carriage reps, particularly Mr McHugh? were decent. But the women (name?) was good until she wouldn’t or couldn’t answer the “where do ALL of them go” question.

            Asking PETA to debate is ridiculous…they want NO animal use or ownership. The rep dodged the direct question at least twice from the anchor….not good.

          • D. Verret
            November 23, 2011 at 3:53 pm

            Forgot to add, the NY1 piece featured a still of the stables and box stall for these equines. While the aisle looked extremely narrow, it looked clean and well maintained. I don’t want to discuss turnout facilities or definitions of what exercise is. But looks better than what the majority of equine owners utilize my neck of the woods.

            You know, if the CP Conservancy can tear down stables, they can certainly build them.

  7. Regina Clark
    November 22, 2011 at 10:52 pm

    Ban the Horse Carriage Industry!!! It should not exist. As a New Yorker, I am EMBARRASSED that such barbarism exists in my city. And I am sickened every time I see one of the horses. I am sickened by the cruelty, and I am sickened by the smell of horse feces and urine on the streets.

    Enough is ENOUGH!!!!!

    • abby house
      November 22, 2011 at 11:19 pm

      Right on Regina Clark. Keep up the pressure in NYC. I will not come as a tourist until it’s banned. I will shame everyone I know if they visit your city.

      • November 23, 2011 at 5:13 am

        I don’t know how we will struggle on without you.

  8. Ellen-Cathryn Nash
    November 22, 2011 at 6:23 am

    Again, the trade should not be banned but reformed. The Carriage horses going on a vacation is simply not good enough. They should live in Central Park and never leave, ever. Bloomberg can finance the construction of barns large enough to stable the 216 or so Carriage horses. There they can be horses and on their ‘off time’ they can roll in a pasture, gallop around if they like and just be horses. The must be a compromise rather than this vitriol on both sides. It does not a thing to benefit the horses.

    • admin
      November 22, 2011 at 6:25 am

      We concur. Thanks.

      The Editor

    • D. Verret
      November 22, 2011 at 12:19 pm

      Agreed and with a showplace for equines inside CP, how many children and visitors would be motivated to visit and learn about equines, tack, etc? I think folks would show up.

      Is there some problem with CP management about this idea?

    • November 22, 2011 at 6:43 pm

      Ellen: new “reformers” happen along every year or two, and think they are the very first to think of brilliant ideas that will ‘save’ an industry that doesn’t need saving.

      Just last year we were instrumental in helping to craft a pro-active bill that included upgrades in every area of our horses lives. You can read it here: http://thewhiffletreenyc.blogspot.com/2010/04/here-it-is-new-law-for-nyc-horse.html

      As to Central Park, that is a perennial suggestion, and a total non-starter. Central Park is a city landmark, and every square foot of its historical integrity as an urban landscape is jealously guarded by the Central Park Conservancy, and rightly so. The Park is not just some expanse of land with grass; it is a jewel of 19th century landscaping architecture, and it is amazing that it has survived relatively intact. Hey, if the unimaginable happened and the city OFFERED us an area within the Park boundaries, we’d consider it. But the Park is only 843 acres, and much of that is water, dedicated spaces, gardens, rocky outcrops, etc. The few open spaces already have uses. Do you have ANY IDEA how large a space it would take to stable and pasture 220 draft horses, not to mention they are SHOD, so they would require individual turn outs? It’s absurd. Our horses do JUST FINE on their vacations; most horses get MONTHS at a time off. For instance, my husband has two horses, and we rotate them up from PA, 6 months at a time. They do NOTHING in PA but “roll, gallop, and the like”.

      You say the horses should stay in the Park and “never, ever leave” — what about the hundreds of thousands of horses who are put in metal boxes and hurtle down a highway at 60mph? Should all those owners be prevented from going to shows etc, just keep them on their property and “never, ever leave”?

      Lasty, regarding “vitriol on both sides” – there IS no vitriol on OUR side. There are just regular horsemen, going about their business in a legal and humane way, who are constantly lambasted, lied about, threatened, and who have their entire way of life under constant assault from hysterical know-nothings. When we are attacked, we respond, as any normal person would. YOU try walking a mile in our shoes – maybe for 30 years like I have – and see if YOU occasionally respond with “vitriol”.

      • November 22, 2011 at 6:45 pm

        BTW — add buildings to house 68 carriages to that Central Park idea…it’s just completely undoable.

        • abby house
          November 22, 2011 at 11:26 pm

          And that is why it should be banned. The industry has already been regulated to death and still can’t get it’s act together.

        • D. Verret
          November 23, 2011 at 2:09 am

          Gee, Eva Hughes…I thought the carriage equines were city landmarks too.

          So one city landmark can’t work with another city landmark? Maybe not.

          • November 23, 2011 at 5:12 am

            Um, no, the “carriage equines” are not “city landmarks”.

            If they were, we wouldn’t have to concern ourselves with the rantings of people like yourself; we would enjoy the full protection that comes with being and officially designated landmark, and we could just ignore you outright.

          • D. Verret
            November 23, 2011 at 11:37 am

            Lady, if what I have posted on this thread re HCA and carriage equines in NYC are “rants”, then your posts are borderline “psychotic”.

            And remember, I don’t support a complete shutdown, just changes.

            But with people like you speaking for the carriage industry in NYC, I can see why no intelligent, productive progress has been made and the issue has become so polarizing. You have been dragged kicking and screaming about change for so long, your heels are still dug in and you are shrill.

            BTW, I’ve read procarriage posts that call them institutions, icon, etc of NYC, ergo landmark.

    • Gayle
      November 22, 2011 at 7:28 pm

      Yes! What you said!

  9. November 22, 2011 at 2:17 am

    It’s about time the RARAs, the ASPCA, PETA, and the HSUS were held accountable for the damage they have done to our horses. I am flat out fed up with the lies, accusations, idiotic graphis pics and bs they spread just to get people who know nothing about horses to give them money and support their propaganda and campaigns. It’s a multi million dollar racket and the NY Carriage owners and drivers should sue for their share in it.
    By the way, it’s not illegal to sell your horse, either at an auction, to a horse trader or even to the kill buyer. The Animal Angles are welcome to come up with the cash to buy it if the want to control where it goes. Let them pay the $3500 per year it costs to feed it. If you aren’t willing to do that, you have NO RIGHT to tell someone else what to do with their own horse.
    Great Job Eva and Christina!!! And two thumbs up for Blue Star!!

    • November 22, 2011 at 4:11 am

      Forest Trails – thank you for your support and insight, it is much appreciated! :^D

  10. Jane
    November 21, 2011 at 11:21 pm

    You are all entitled to your opinions. As the late Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan noted, you are not entitled to your own facts. I think RARAs should be extremely careful about posting potentally libelous statements. Do you know whether the statements you post are factually accurate? One huge problem is that NONE of the anti-carriage horse sites allow any dissenting opinions, including correction of LIES. Eva is a member of the carriage horse industry. As such, she is in the position to correct misinformation or outright lies.

    • abby house
      November 21, 2011 at 11:28 pm

      And so should the carriage horse industry. You see it really is a two way street. I think the carriage horse owners are saying many slanderous things without any evidence whatsoever. However, horses dropping dead or injured in the streets is quite enough evidence even for the mentally delayed.

      • SLH
        November 21, 2011 at 11:45 pm

        Abby one horse died. Do you think that is a reflection on an entire industry ? One horse who’s nercropsy has not been released for an entire month now? You could bet your life that “if” it had revealed his death was in anyway related to being a carriage horse it would have been available the following day. Gross results in nercropsy’s take hours not months. Hickstead died in Italy and with in 48hrs his results were public. All I see is a lot of FiFiFoFum from the radicals trying to force their will onto anyone and anything that they do not agree with.

        • D. Verret
          November 22, 2011 at 12:19 am

          This isn’t about ONE horse. This has been going on for awhile (carriages in cities, NYC specifically).

          • Jane
            November 22, 2011 at 3:09 am

            Care to cite your sources? Can you list the number of horses that have died in NYC in the past quarter-century due to motor vehicle accidents? Hint – it’s a short list. Tragic for the animals,but not as many as may die in one weekend of a sport like eventing. You demand citations for everything the carriage horse owners state, but feel free to just post statements with no concrete information.

          • D. Verret
            November 22, 2011 at 12:15 pm

            I didn’t cite mortality statistics re: “ONE” because I believe many equines have “died”; I was referencing that there is a heated debate on the entire industry to include, welfare, injuries, vehicle v. equine…ergo, not about “ONE” horse.

            And you seem to know the answer…put the data up and show everyone how smart you are. I know the answer, I also know there are problems with the data in many ways….just like the rodeos, racers, jumpers, etc. IOW, the issue isn’t just mortality stats.

        • Gayle
          November 22, 2011 at 7:26 pm

          And as those of us who know about horses can attest, horses, like people, can drop dead for any number of reasons, including heart attack. Perhaps you should stay off the streets as well, in case you have aneurysm and die? Actually, the last time I was at Tufts with a horse there was a carriage horse in there. I don’t know what was going on with him but I can tell you that his owner was doing everything he could for him and that he was willing to pay a lot; Tufts isn’t cheap! He looked to be in good weight,and his feet were fine. Speaking of feet, are any of you who are slinging mud qualified to judge whether or not a horse is well shod? This is a science onto it’s self. I’m not saying all carriage horses are well taken care of or that the industry is well regulated. I am saying that you can’t paint everyone with the same brush and that experienced horse people are the ones who should be judging, not someone whose entire experience with horses has been playing with My Little Pony as a child.

          • abby house
            November 22, 2011 at 11:23 pm

            Gayle I do my own farrier work and I am quite knowledgeable. It frightens me when I hear “horse people” talk like you: horses drop dead all the time, I care for 34 horses etc. You are discrediting yourself. People are expressing opinions and discussing facts that does not equate to mud slinging.

      • John
        November 24, 2011 at 9:34 am

        Abby

        Have you ever seen all the people who drop dead in the streets everyday? Look at all the people who get injured on public transportation, their own fault. People are supposted to have a better brain than an animal..

        John

  11. tami
    November 21, 2011 at 10:17 pm

    This is not an inhuman job for a horse. Horses have to work to live but also live to work. I have worked with horses for over half my life, I believe that the anti/carriage do miss lead or out right lie about something they have No clue about. Get real horse people on here and you will get different story. These are animals that can’t just go to a field, they end up dying younger, and have been found to really be abused when in field. The wild mustangs are being herded up and are dieing under government care. So Please before you try banning these horses educate the real life of a horse who does work for a living with better benefits then most.

    • abby house
      November 21, 2011 at 11:25 pm

      You do not have to be a “real horse-person” to get an accurate picture of what is going on in NYC. I have seen far too many “horse-people” neglect, abuse, use up, and then dispose of horses that I always question their ethics. Further horse people are not known for their intelligence or their ethics – sorry.

      • Gayle
        November 22, 2011 at 7:08 pm

        Wow! Where do you get off? “Horse people not known for their intelligence or ethics?” You sound like an idiot! I have cared for horses for most of my life, manage a farm with 34 horses and know what I’m talking about. If the care these horses are getting is suspect then it needs to be investigated, standards need to be set and then met. If the city wants carriages then the city needs to regulate the horses care. But real horse people need to be involved in this, not these PETA crackpots. You really don’t know what your talking about and in your ignorance you could do great damage.

        • John
          November 24, 2011 at 9:29 am

          Gayle

          Thank you for your good Post. There needs to be more people like you to TRY to set these misinformed people straight with NO COMMON SENSE that make their opinions here. Thanks again

          John

      • Marcia
        November 22, 2011 at 8:25 pm

        Wow, what a slam against all horse people. I would like to see your stats for that. Do you have statistics that show that a broad spectrum of horse people have below average intelligence scores? As a horse person myself, I have never been accused of neglect nor abuse of a horse. I have also spent countless dollars and years trying to rehab a horse that was injured (while galloping in her pasture)shortly after I purchased her. When it became clear that she would never be sound for the purpose for which I had purchased her, I found her a wonderful retirement home where she is loved on and well cared for. If the day comes that they cannot afford her, she will return to me and I will find her a new situation. I guess I had better check my intelligence because looking at what I have done, although it is ethical and humane it certainly is not intelligent.
        And yes, you do have to have some knowledge of horses to draw a conclusion about the carriage horses. I have seen videos where the commentator points to a horse’s chestnuts and bemoans that this “poor horse if being forced to work even though it has tumors on its legs”.
        And the idea that all horses should be in a grass filled pasture running free is ignorant. There are many horses that put in that position would founder from the grass they ate and would need to be kept in stalls and treated for months or put down due to rotation of the coffin bone in their hooves.
        If you don’t know about horses, you don’t know those 2 things and there are many other things you don’t know (and I am by no means an expert)and some of the things that you believe would be good for the horse could injure or kill it. But then, you would just claim you thought you were doing the right thing and so all should be forgiven. How ethical is that?

        • abby house
          November 22, 2011 at 11:16 pm

          I didn’t say all “horse people” have low IQs. I also happen to run a farm and train etc for many years. I think that when I meet an ethical, intelligent horse person it is a miracle. Sorry but most are not either and I have met many. I wish it weren’t like that. Frankly Gayle, I find it hard to believe that anyone can properly care for 34 horses all by themselves. I care and train 10 and there simply isn’t any daylight left when I’m done each day.

  12. Kristell
    November 21, 2011 at 6:47 pm

    Horse & carriages do not belong on the street of Manhattan or any other city for that matter!!! I’ve seen firsthand how horribly the horses are treated. The carriage drivers not only have little or no regard for their horses, they also don’t care about pedestrians. I have witnessed time & time again the carriage drivers going through red lights & barreling through crosswalks. The horses are treated as slaves, not animals that should be respected & loved. I live in Midtown Manhattan, right by the stables that the horse & carriages are stored. They have hardly any room to move or sleep. They have to be led up ramps in the stables to be brought up to their stalls, which are much smaller than required. I participate in protests against this cruel industry & have had several run-ins with the carriage drivers. Most of them are uneducated, immoral & outright nasty. Also a lil FYI, nothing written by Eva Hughes is legit. She works for the horse & carriage industry & has family involved in this disgusting & barbaric “profession”. She’s one of the most repulsive people I have ever encountered, both on the inside as well as out. Anyone who thinks a busy & crazy city like NYC should have animals running through the streets with no regard to the animals’s needs or to the humans who live here, needs to have their heads examined by a medical professional. I hope for the sake of the horses & the people who live in this city, this barbaric industry is finally put to an end & Mayor Bloomberg will consider these things instead of just the money factor.

  13. Ruth Eisenbud
    November 21, 2011 at 6:18 pm

    In Delhi, India carriage horses have been banned for several years…Indian religions such as jainism and hinduism grnat the same respect to animal and human lives…The judeo.christian doctrine of dominion allows for the exploitation of animals for human profit, greed and benefit. So it is no wonder that in a christian nation, despite the terrible abuses heaped on the carriage horses, are considered tolerable as long as there is human benefit.

    • Jan S
      November 21, 2011 at 11:31 pm

      Sorry Ruth – some of the worst animal abuse is found in India. The cattle in the streets are more often then not starving. And now that people are slaughtering the cattle – the cattle are driven for miles staggering and beaten. The dogs of India ARE starved. Animal rights do not flourish any better under jainism or hinduism or judeo.christian. The rights of all creatures flourish in the hearts and works of the compassionate.

  14. Carriage Horse Lover
    November 21, 2011 at 5:38 pm

    Radical Animal Rights Activists, as compared to people concerned about animal WELFARE, have a self-avowed agenda to destroy the NYC carriage owners, drivers and their livelihoods as well as their means of supporting their horses, and by extension attacking ALL carriage horse owners and drivers.

    They are on a “mission” to keep their cause in front of the general public by using any ploy the can- this includes

    *stating over and over that the NYC carriage horses are cruelly treated despite the FACT that there has not been a single owner or driver clarged with “animal cruelty.”

    * Calling any incident involving a carriage horse a major accident, even when no one is injured including the horse.

    * Claiming that any time a carriage horse slips or falls that the horse is “collapsing” usually because of “over work.”

    * claiming on several sites that up to six horses (number varies) had died recently (posts claim anywhere from within last six months to within the past few weeks)– when ONLY ONE carriage hrose has died- Charlie on Oct. 23 of still as of yet undiscovered causes.

    * Engaging in name-calling and posting juvenile “doctored” photos of members of the pro-carriage horse contingent.

    * Claiming that drivers are overcharging tourists.

    * Claiming that undocumented aliens are workng at the stables or as drivers. Where’s the proof?

    * Claiming that NYC carriage horses are regularly sent to slaughter and NOT retirement.

    * Claiming that Blue Star Equiculture is a “fake” retirement farm. BSE has its Federal non-profit status.

    * Claiming that horses whose heads are usually held five to seven feet in the air are living a “nose-to-tail pipe existance” when the average tail pipe is about two feet off the ground. Just use a tape measure for yourself to prove this wrong.

    I could go on, but I think I’ve covered most of the false claims the RARAs are making. These people are against horses doing any work, anywhere. They believe all horses should “live free in the country.” They believe that horse owners and pet owners are “slave owners” and that “animal slavery” needs to be banned.

    I also respectfully idsagree with those who think that horses do not belong in urban settings. I point to the increased use of horse-drawn carriages, drays, delivery wagons and trash wagons in MANY European and UK towns, cities and villages to support my opinion.

    What NYC and most major cities with historic city centers need are: MORE carriages, FEWER cars.

    Horse-drawn vehicles are the original “green transportation.” Horse manure, properly handled and composted, is GOOD for the environment as when used as fertilizer, not bad like motor exhaust with its cancer-causing chemicals and green house effect gasses.

  15. Rosa Munguia-Maguire
    November 21, 2011 at 4:43 pm

    It is time the horses are taken off the streets of NYC. Carriage horse drivers get pedicabs and work for your money!!

    Pedicabs are the way to go. There is nothing quaint or romantic about being driven in a carriage pulled by a tired, sick and overworked horse. Enough already, this industry is past it’s due date.

  16. Solvejg Zaferes
    November 21, 2011 at 4:38 pm

    “HORSES DON’T BELONG IN TRAFIC”. What is wrong with Mayor Bloomberg’s statement: ” Horse Drawn Carriages are a Tradition of New York City. It brings in the Tourist’s and Money. Wow!! That’s ALL what counts “MONEY”. What will happen, when we will have more accidents, and very possible a Fatel one? Still a Tradition????? Come on, lets get CIVILIZED, Horses in havy traffic are a danger for the TOURIST’S the HORSES the Drivers, and ofcourse for the PUBLIC. It puts a SHAME on this City.

  17. andrea basile
    November 21, 2011 at 3:52 pm

    horses belong on soft ground in natural surroundings not in the crush of 21st century technology. I’m sure there are many teamsters who try to take care of their bread and butter…it’s the situation itself that is destructive to the animal. Their feet are never shod properly, the cab stands are all in the sun, there is no water freely available, they stand on concrete which returns their weight to their legs and backs, they have no freedom, no place to lie down and no chance of having contact with other horses which is vital to a horses psyche…and why?????? for a tourist? for 100 teamsters who couldn’t care less?
    The brutal violation of these animals should stop just because of the indecency of it and not the laundry list of other just clauses.

  18. admin
    November 21, 2011 at 3:23 pm

    I will be checking email messages throughout the day for breaking news and information.

    The Editor

  19. admin
    November 21, 2011 at 3:23 pm

    I will be out pretty much all day sitting in a dentist chair enduring the ordeal of “deep cleaning.” Your comments will be posted late this afternoon or this evening.

    The Editor

    • D. Verret
      November 21, 2011 at 3:36 pm

      Ouch..I feel for ya”.

  20. Johnny
    November 21, 2011 at 3:14 pm

    Attorney General must investigate how this industry defrauds the tourist with overcharing, hires illegals off the books, has drivers working with other people’s licenses, double shifts the horses, hires illegals as drivers, dumps the horse for slaughter, pays NO employer taxes, is in a FAKE union with no collective drivers and ONLY a few of the OWNERS not workers are part of it. Why is this industry GRANDFATHER from basic buidling codes and subsidized by the taxpayers??? This must be addressed. Also the FAKE sancturary by a Philadelphia white trash Christina Hansen.

    • Truth Be Told
      November 21, 2011 at 3:54 pm

      You are completely right. This is just bully tactics by these so called ‘workers”. They got caught FINALLY and now they are just bullying bc it is not getting worldwide attention how these animals are treated. If anything, it shows the quality of people who actually have control of these horses. The industry needs to be SHUT DOWN!!!!! Keep fighting for animals who can’t stand up for themselves. How much more documentation do you need to shut this down?

    • John
      November 21, 2011 at 7:50 pm

      Johnny

      Could you please provide a link for this information (either written or Video) If what you say can de documented and not just your opinion, then it would warrant an investigation.. You are so right with what you say, we just need more information.

      How can the biggest critic here question my post with her own words? John

    • SLH
      November 21, 2011 at 9:45 pm

      I’d be careful making public libelous remarks. Janet lets point out the obvious. Was the horse actually a NYC carriage horse .. can it be proven? Any radical with a trailer some stencils and a rasp could make pretty much any horse appear to be an x NYC carriage group. If you don’t think they’d go to this length drift back to the numbers fo times they have let animals out of cages , thown paint and pies at the public for wearing fur. When you hear hoofbeats its ok to think Carriage horses but don’t forget about the Jackasses.

  21. Anne Streeter
    November 21, 2011 at 2:13 pm

    No matter what you say, city streets are not the place for carriage horses! It is a miserable and dangerous life for these animals and should be banned wherever it takes place – including Montreal where I come from.

  22. D. Verret
    November 21, 2011 at 1:59 pm

    HCA:

    Why don’t you sue ASPCA, as opposed to filing a complaint with the AG?

    I think I know the answer, but would like to hear it from the proverbial “horse’s” mouth.

    • abby house
      November 21, 2011 at 11:20 pm

      Yes good idea. All I can say is what a waste of tax payer money if anything comes of these empty complaints.

  23. bingo
    November 21, 2011 at 1:45 pm

    how about an investigation into the freakin carriage horse operation? undocumented “stable” workers, drivers regularly caught over-charging passengers, city-subsidized rent, horses disappearing from the rolls, an all cash business that never seems to have any customers yet always has enough pull to get what it wants from politicians. something very fishy going on.

  24. D. Verret
    November 21, 2011 at 1:08 pm

    How many times can you write the same thing, with different and nonquantifiable words and bullet points?

    See the letter from HCA above.

  25. Barbara Warner
    November 21, 2011 at 12:46 pm

    New York City streets are no place for these horses. They stand in the heat or cold for hours without feed or water sometimes and are exposed to dangerous traffic all the time. They are never out in a pasture to be just a horse. It’s time this is stopped.

  26. November 21, 2011 at 12:17 pm

    Janet Schultz – you should be VERY careful what you cite as fact. Animal Angels saw a horse being dropped off at a FARM, not the auction. (You ARE aware our horses MUST have 5 weeks vacation at pasture, right?)Go back and read their ersatz “investigation” again.

    • D. Verret
      November 21, 2011 at 2:07 pm

      You ARE aware many KBs have farms were the equines DON’T go thru the auction, are located near auctions and the equines are held for X number of days and then direct to slaughter based on schedule to deliver….just an FYI.

      • November 22, 2011 at 4:06 am

        D. Verret – there is no “FYI” you could impart to me when it comes to the Amish, New Holland auction, or NYC carriage horses. I have been in this industry for 30 years, been going to New Holland and the surrounding farms for just as long. If you were wise, you’d take your FYIs from me, not the other way around.

        • D. Verret
          November 22, 2011 at 12:06 pm

          First, I am going to ignore your arrogance and rudeness.

          Second, I’m not talking about the Amish; I didn’t bring them up or even discuss the NH auction (and yes, I know who runs the auction and brings/buys most of the drafts/draftX/standardbreds)..I’m talking about NOTORIOUS KBs in and around that area to include parts of NJ that COLLECT EQUINES at their farms/properties bypassing the auctions ENTIRELY.

          Some auctions have become so scrutinized and infamous, sellers and KBs skip them altogether. That’s what I was talking about and a point you so blatantly ignore.

          If this is how you and your collective communicate, to include listening/comprehending, no wonder you are having problems…it isn’t JUST because ASPCA are crooks and real estate thieves.

          You have an image problem, Madam. You would do more for your cause to work on that.

          • Joe
            November 23, 2011 at 11:23 pm

            D. Verret

            Just look at what you write, you call others rude. You take the cake for calling people dumb, misinformed. Why do you think you know more than anyone here. Let’s see your resume. Most people you call out including myself have forgot more than you will ever know. Since I am the dumb farmer as you called me and other posters. This is just for you as I am a retired farmer. Just what do you put in your big dumb MOUTH besides your foot??

            Is everyone aware that the HR 2112 passed? For all the decent people that know how to respond with common sense, have a HAPPY THANKSGIVING Joe

          • D. Verret
            November 24, 2011 at 1:26 pm

            OUCH, Joe!

            Another searing editorial on me by you.

            Ya’ got me, Joe….I’m a dead fish floatin’ on the surface that has been dynamited by Jethro, the proslaughter superhero.

            Bang! I’m dead. I could NEVER compete with your sharp wit, knowledge and literary abilities and accomplishments.

            Boy! Thanks I needed being put in my place and you have done a thorough job of that.

            Happy Thanksgiving Joe. I’m glad you have a job in this tough economy…you are luckier than most.

    • John
      November 21, 2011 at 2:25 pm

      Eva Hughes

      Thank you for giving that important bit of information. You will notice there is one person in particular that askes for a link or video. If it does not say what she likes she will keep posting redunndant comments. Take notice she has more negative to say about everyone than anyone..

      Thanks John

      • D. Verret
        November 21, 2011 at 2:46 pm

        I didn’t say anything negative here…I asked questions; starting with the first poster to prove the claim that a “carriage” equine was “dropped” in New Holland.

        I also tried to inform Eva Hughes that equines going to “fields/pasture” aren’t necessarily getting time off, but awaiting final transport….FACT!

        I also asked why the complaint versus suit…not negative, no complaint for me. I want to understand the logic of the filing and the legal objective.

        I did say, in a round about way that the letter was not very well written.

        • D. Verret
          November 21, 2011 at 3:00 pm

          And you are the first person here that I see going after people that post…not the topic.

  27. Ellen-Cathryn Nash
    November 21, 2011 at 10:45 am

    This is sickening. I don’t know what to say beyond this. Where will the Carriage horses end up now? At New Holland.

  28. Janet Schultz
    November 21, 2011 at 6:12 am

    Quite bad timing then that Animals Angels watched a trailer of one of these carriage businesses dropping off one of its carriage horses at the New Holland auction – underweight and with newly rasped left front hoof. Seems the protection of the horses is not quite so protective after all.

    • D. Verret
      November 21, 2011 at 2:05 pm

      Could you please provide a link for this event (either written or video)?

    • notatreehugger
      November 21, 2011 at 8:07 pm

      How do you know it was a nyc carriage horse? Just because it was being transported by their truck, doesn’t mean it was there horse. I haul other peoples horses ALL the time, doesn’t mean its mine just because it was on my trailer.

    • Ellen
      November 24, 2011 at 10:45 pm

      http://horsebackmagazine.com/hb/archives/12733

      Please consult the above article for the investigation on the topic, conducted by the very magazine you are reading.

      From the article:
      The investigator with Animals’ Angels told Horseback, “During our visit to the New Holland sale barn the carriage horse never showed up.

      “We have no evidence at all that the horse went to slaughter,” the investigator said. The investigator did say, however, it appeard that identifying hoof marks characteristic of horses used in the NYC carriage trade appeared to have been removed but the horse didn’t make an appearance in the auction pens.

      The investigator pointed to a passage in her report that has been overlooked by anti carriage horse forces using it to allege the a carriage horse went to an auction notorious for catering to “killer buyers.” The report stated, “The investigators attended the New Holland Horse auction on 10/3/11 to check if the horse would be sold at the auction, but it was not.”

Comments are closed.